As we put the finishing touches on the references from one novel, I'm curious to ask - how "major" of a thing does something have to be to be a "reference." For example, looking at the items listed in the "Other" section could be considered pretty banal - apple, axe, basket, corn, dandelion, towel, etc. What's the criteria to determine that something deserves to be mentioned and an article written on it as opposed to things that are just accepted as common knowledge? --Captain Savar 01:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Look up Bee sometime. Look at all the links to it. Now, tell me what is important. Try Chicken. All these pages were created with a single reference which exploded from there. – AT2Howell 06:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the comment, although it really didn't answer the question. Can any admin point to a style or help page about this? Or is it just completely arbitrary? --Captain Savar 15:54, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

We've discussed it in the past, but not written a rule. Usually it has to be something that you can at least write a sentence of context, and not just a definition -- for example A Chicken is an animal is a definition and too short to be an article. But A chicken is an animal. Kirk ate a sandwich made out of chicken has context and seems short and somewhat basic, but if there are eight or nine kinds of chicken references, all of a sudden you have a list that connects several sources. That's what I think the value of it is. -- Captain MKB 16:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Follow-upEdit

Which is the proper section to note titles? For example, Breen Domo, Tanwa-Seynorral, etc? --Captain Savar 21:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd go with "Other". – AT2Howell 21:48, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

If there are less than a few I'd say to include them in "Other references", but when a number are mentioned I create a references subsection called "Ranks and titles". -- Captain MKB 03:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

New QuestionEdit

New question about references. When a novel has a quotation from another book, do we list those as references? Example: Lost Souls has a quote at the beginning from Lord Tennyson's Ulysses. Do I list him and the book as references? I'm leaning towards no, because they're not actually part of the story, but someone who's been around forever might think differently. (PS, is there anywhere that we can start to list all of these nuggets of wisdom, like a project/style page?) --Captain Savar 18:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

My 2c: If it's not something being referenced in-universe, then no. --75.168.167.233 19:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I record these as "Other" in references. If they're in the book, they go on the page. Check out VOY novel: Full Circle, there is a "Lost" reference. – AT2Howell 19:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

That's from the epigraph, not an in-universe reference. --75.168.167.233 20:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

That's wonderful, but if it's between the covers, it goes on the page. A reference is a reference is a reference. Just keep chanting that to yourself. – AT2Howell 20:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Gee, AT, I missed the news that you were made God of Memory Beta and given the power to make pronouncements like this. Congratulations! So, I can expect to see you creating links for all the books that have Asimov's and Analog magazine ads between the pages soon? --75.168.167.233 00:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

What? You didn't get that memo? You've got to start coming to the meetings. – AT2Howell 12:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the Style Guide is unclear on this, that's why I ask. Although you seem very firm in your conviction, there's no citation in this community to back it up. You know how much we all love citations! --Captain Savar 21:01, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

You would be quite wrong there AT2, if that were our policy then the publication data, acknowledgments, about the author, and adverts would all be considered suitable in-universe references, which is clearly nonsense! The quotation, like all those other real world information sources is suitable for the background section in the appendices, not amongst the usual references. (Doubt that's written into policy, but sue your head!)

And yeah, we could do with moving a lot of the various community discussion and decision written into actual policy, if you see/find something missing please bring it up on the relevant policy talk page. --8of5 12:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and Tennyson and his book were listed on the page until someone who decided to leave out references that were listed in the book. That person obviously doesn't see the "big picture" and thinks he can pick and choose what we record here. I guess he's suggesting that we leave out information, and we would never do that. In the immortal words of the Captain, "We are here to chronicle, not to try and judge it..." – AT2Howell 13:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

If you're talking about me, since I just updated the lists of references, just say so. I'm not picking and choosing, I'm making logical choices, and then bringing the gray areas in front of the community. --Captain Savar 15:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

AT2Howell, I'm not sure if I just don't understand you, but you seem to be in a different conversation than the rest of us. I'm not even sure what you mean. Could you maybe just go off and do something else while those who are on topic work on this?

In reference to page quotes, we have another kind. Diane Duane in particular uses in-universe references and attributes them to fictional authors, for example, one is by a Romulan and cited as such, or might be cited to an in-universe scientist or philosopher writing about the Romulans. She also included a fictional bibliography of in-universe scientific papers in one book. Just putting those on the table for users to consider while discussing this issue. -- Captain MKB 15:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. The quote is important to the story and should be in the references. My point is that many people accuse me of "missing the big picture" and wanting to pick and choose what we record on this wiki, and that is exactly what they're talking about here. The suggestion on the table is that we should pick and choose what is important to a story (in this case the epigraph). You are the one who keeps saying we can't make decisions like that. I agree with you, Capt. How often does that happen? – AT2Howell 15:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Who's saying we shouldn't include the information? We just need to include it in the right place, which is not the in-universe references section. --8of5 15:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you asking how often is there an epigraph? Pretty often, if memory serves me right. --Captain Savar 15:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

When I say Capt, I mean the Mike type, not the Savar type. Savar needs to stop vandalizing pages. – AT2Howell 16:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

AT2Howell, Savar is not vandalizing pages. He is participating in a discussion about how to place references. A discussion that you are disrupting with non-constructive accusations rather than actual conversation.

If need be, we will ban you from the site for a period of time until the other users can finish discussing the issue without your disruptions. I've already asked you once, now I'm warning you. Do not reply on this page, you've already wasted your chance to be a constructive part of this conversation. --

May I suggest a section in the book pages for "Chapter Quotations" (or "Book..."? "Section..."? "Stage Setting Quotations"? There must be an appropriate term) to give the quote and fully attribute its source (usually to an outside link, but to an internal page if we have one). This would be separate from the Reference section, where (for example) Lord Tennyson and Ulysses would be placed if a character in the book made the quotation or otherwise made such a reference.--Emperorkalan 18:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Looking at what you (Savar) did on the Lost Souls page, yes, that's about right. Since we don't have internal pages for Tennyson and Ulysses what I'm suggesting is that we add links to outside sources (in most cases the Wikipedia page) for these rather than create new internal pages solely for these quotations. --Emperorkalan 18:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

We do however have internal links to both Tennyson and Ulysses which is why I kept the links internal (even if they are red for now) in this instance. --8of5 19:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)