Re "Other References": I believe there were several references in dialogue in TNG to "sonic drivers" (not "sonic screwdrivers"). Gildir 16:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
- Just in reference to this article's existence: this is unprecedented on MB, even in the realm of our "real-world" POV articles
- Doctor Who in reference to "in-universe" POV: They've never mentioned the show. In Diane Duane's novels, they at one point watch a scene that seems similar to Doctor Who. But they don't use the name, and they don't even watch a scene that is actually from any real Doctor Who episode. So it's not really "provable" the scene they watched was Doctor Who.
- Doctor Who in reference to "real-world" POV: As a TV series that exists as a background reference. We've deleted "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" after discussion, and I think this establishes a precedent. Even though authors are sneaking references into shows, we don't have a Battlestar Galactica page, nor do we have an X-Files page. Yes, even though they've implied that characters from other series have visited out Star Trek heroes, we don't create pages because of it - - mainly because they didn't come out and say it. That might have been some other psychologist named Maggie, or some other time-traveler with a scarf. Just saying.
- "Doctor Who" in reference to "real world" POV as crossover material: Doctor Who (the series, the franchise) will be crossing over with Star Trek soon. But we don't even usually create articles for topics of crossovers. We'll create articles for the TARDIS and The Doctor (Time Lord) himself, but an article about Doctor Who the series/franchise? We don't have an article for the DC Universe or the Marvel Universe (even though we have Darkseid and Jean Grey), even though those franchises have crossed us over before, is this one different somehow? -- Captain MKB 07:22, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
1) If it quacks like a duck... That scene is absolutely unquestionably Doctor Who, so much so it could have been lifted from a Terrance Dicks novelisation. Just because Tom Baker stayed on for another season in the Trek-verse, or the name was left out for copyright reasons, or Star Trek authors are timid about pop cultural references doesn't change that.
2 & 3) If there are enough references for it, then yes, we definitely should have pages for all these other franchises. It's an index that collects all the references in one place rather than being scattered all over the wiki. It's a useful, fun, and of interest to other fandoms, fans of both franchises, and even authors looking to make such references or write cross-overs. It helps this wiki build connections with other wikis and franchises.
For example, there have been several cross-overs with The X-Men: a few comics, and a novel. If I want to find the name or information about one of these, well, "The X-Men" won't work, so I have to guess a related name, search for that, and follow a series of links to discover them.
Other wikias already do this, and have done so for a long time. Memory Alpha has a huge Doctor WhoMA page. The TARDIS Index File has three such pages for Star Trek alone — Star Trek, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek (franchise) — and a load of others. The Stargate wikia has a Star Trek page as well. Memory Beta really needs to catch up. BadCatMan 11:01, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
1) Still not substantial. I apologize that you have such an erroneous view of how things work with sourcing on this site. If you read a book and a character seems like someone, but their identity is not established, then their identity is not established. Period. This goes from a nameless ensign in a novel all the way up to your favorite sci-fi characters. This isn't about being timid, it's about enforcing the way things are done on this site. -- Captain MKB 22:54, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
2 & 3 ) - Prior precedent, achieved by consensus discussion, says that this is wrong. We voted, and decided this was not feasible. Just because BadCatMan decides not to follow policy, doesn't invalidate every other person who participated in that discussion. Or the rest of our site's policy.
It's not a matter of "catching up with other wikis" ... all wikis are defined by their mission statement, and a majority consensus maintains this... it's a matter of not reinventing a wiki to your own ideas. You have no right to invalidate the consensus decided by multiple users who deliberately discussed and hammered out a policy you happen to disagree with. -- Captain MKB 22:54, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
- Please don't insult me or ascribe false motivations to me. I don't appreciate it. I'd like to remind you of the policies Memory Beta:Etiquette and Memory Beta:No personal attacks.
- With the Doctor (Time Lord), I did exactly what you did when you made the TARDIS article. I followed your example even. You used a name and description from external sources to create an article about something glimpsed in the corner of a scene. You rightfully assumed it was the Doctor's TARDIS and made an article about it in preparation for Assimilation². You didn't assume that Vandar has a side-hobby of collecting antique telephone boxes, like Bill and Ted's one next to it.
- If someone like, I dunno, Wesley Crusher, were to have a mysterious cameo appearance in say a Deep Space 9 story, in disguise or whatever, and he was described as Wesley, acted like Wesley, and mentioned doing things we know Wesley did, it would be entirely correct to put a piece on Wesley's page to mention that very real possibility. As the Doctor is about to become a Star Trek character as well, the same rule applies.
- This page has been here for 6 years. It's had a dozen editors. I didn't create it, only added to it. That's a pretty solid precedent to my mind, and I think that Memory Alpha is a good example for Memory Beta to follow. We also have Star Trek within Star Trek to do largely the same thing, only recursively.
- Out of interest, can you please link me to that mission statement or that discussion? I've looked at the Memory Beta:Inclusion policy and believe this fits under Real world articles that "provide real world information on sources and background to in-universe articles." For discussion, if you meant Memory Beta:Pages for deletion/Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Talk:Buffy the Vampire Slayer, it doesn't seem very conclusive, as Maggie Erickson is only one very minor reference. I'm not proposing we make Other Franchise pages for everything that gets name-dropped, like a Buffy page just on the basis of Maggie Walsh, or a Stargate page based on Michael Kenmore (though there is also a Stargate in that TOS - Legion of Super Heroes comic: "Issue 5" scene). I'm only proposing such pages for things that have accumulated a significant number of references, cross-overs, name-drops, etc., in Star Trek sources, as we have here for Doctor Who, such as The X-Men.
- If we need to change a policy, then I'd like to make formal proposal to do so. What's the best way to go about that? In the forums? Do we have a vote? -- BadCatMan 07:53, March 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Sure thing: Memory Beta:Pages for deletion/Doctor Who... -- Captain MKB 23:33, March 1, 2012 (UTC)