OK, we're getting a little further from our sources here. The previous versions of this article were vague for a reason, and not incorrect.
Columbia Clipper's latest expansions are reasoned to clarify, but i see some information that might be a little too specific and lack sources. Wikipedia states that six-star ranks are a possibility on one of the pages linked here, yet Columbia Clipper's edit states that the insignia "was proposed during World War II" -- 1) what is the source for this, and 2) how does it help a Star Trek wiki to be this specific about real life topics when a more vague description would certainly have sufficed? -- Captain MKB 17:07, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- I included that information because the previous version of the article included the text
- "a conjectural insignia for this rank might be an additional sixth star added to the five-star fleet admiral rank . . ."
- That information probably isn't necessary, and perhaps should be deleted, but I only considered its accuracy when revising the section. "Might be" in this instance is as correct as saying that George Washington might have been the commander-in-chief of the Continental Army. That might have been a conjectural insignia for the six-star rank, yes, but it was also actually proposed. Possibly, this reference should simply be deleted.
- Regarding the source, the insignia was proposed by the United States Army Institute of Heraldry, which is responsible for all formal insignia used by the United States government, with the exception of the Great Seal of the United States. This is recorded (for reasons that are not entirely clear) in the service record of General of the Armies MacArthur, one of two officers, with Fleet Admiral Nimitz, who were considered for promotion to six-star grades prior to the invasion of Japan.
- According to General of the Army Bradley's autobiography, "A General's Life", the creation of six-star grades in the Army and Navy (the Navy version would have been Admiral of the Navy) had also been proposed early in the war (I don't recall by precisely whom in the Allied high command), but was opposed by US Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall, who didn't want to detract from the unique honor that had been bestowed upon General of the Armies Pershing.
- Because this was just a note, and covered non-Star Trek related information, I didn't include these sources. (One of my major interests, as it happens, is military organization and history, particularly in the United States.) --Columbia clipper 17:39, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm also a fan. I'm just questioning adding this much more detail. Before, it stated that this might have been the rank above five-star, now it's becoming less of a Star Trek article and more of an article describing Dewey and the Institute of Heraldry. I initially added the note to show that the US had the AotN rank(s) that were considered retroactively above five-star and roughly equivalent to grand admiral, not to get into a detailed history of US insignia not specifically about this rank. -- Captain MKB 18:05, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- I think you pared it down well. I've made one minor correction, but agree that the level of detail present before wasn't needed. --Columbia clipper 19:22, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Some of that extra information might be transitioned in to similar notes on generals and the US military itself of course, it was removed because to focus this particular topic to GADM. -- Captain MKB 19:31, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
Turner[]
Do we know that Turner's formal uniform was different from those worn by other flag officers? IIRC, we've seen dress uniforms from this period worn only by officers ranked captain and below. Turner is seen wearing a normal flag officer uniform in at least ... Promises to Keep, The Tantalus Trap!, and Homecoming... (in the last, very clearly). --Columbia clipper 17:56, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- The way I've restated it is to be vague, as we don't know what kind of uniform it is (is it service dress? did we catch him in dinner dress?)... several DC comics show some rather flamboyant dress officer uniforms - Cdore Benedict in Who is Enigma springs to mind -- that could be dress uniform variants also, but we don't know. -- Captain MKB 19:25, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- To be checked: I believe we might see Drake's dress uniform in Ashes of Eden: The Comic -- Captain MKB 19:31, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- We do. It's similar to Turner's, but also different. The collar is black, not white, but is ringed by heavy gold embroidery, the uniform flap is traced by two lines of the same embroidery, there is a single white shoulder strap (on the right), which at least once appears to be embellished by a suspended simple white aiguillette, and the uniform cuff carries bands (in the usual colors) only on the left sleeve. --Columbia clipper 22:27, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Since that was his inauguration dinner, we can very safely assume the Ashes of Eden uniforms are dinner dress -- the extra formal selections.
- The uniforms in the DC comics were worn during office hours, probably less formal wear, service dress uniforms. Unless there was atually a design change in between but that is the less logical explanation that they were just different levels of dress formality. -- Captain MKB 23:11, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. That Turner wears a normal-looking uniform in most of his appearances supports this. Perhaps its like the US Army system currently being phased out, which had six levels (seven, counting the rarely-seen white version of the Dress Blues) of uniforms: Mess (Dinner, miniature medals); Dress Blue (Blues, medals instead of ribbons), Blue Service (Blues, ribbons); Class A (Greens with coat, ribbons), service dress; Class B (green with shirt sleeves), a working uniform; Army Combat Uniform (camoflauge field uniform).
- For Starfleet, that would suggest Dinner Dress (Drake's uniform), Full Dress (Turner's fancy uniform), Dress (the officers' uniform with ribbons in Star Trek IV), Service Dress (uniform usually worn by officers), Working (the one-piece uniform usually worn by enlisted persons and sometimes by junior officers), and Fatigue (the field uniform featured in Star Trek V).
- There would also be further utility uniforms, such as protective suits, spacesuits, security armor, etc. much like the flight suits, body armor, EOD gear, etc. used by the Army. --Columbia clipper 23:33, July 19, 2010 (UTC)