Talk:New York

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For the record, the article should record the formal name "State of New York." Further, the article should identify the State of New York as a political subdivision of the USA, since we know that it continues to exist in both the ENT eras and in the novels set in the 2370s. On top of that, it's a mistake to immediately identify it as a "state" (formal name notwithstanding), because the use of the term "states" in the US government hierarchy. US states would be more accurately called provinces, as a "state," in the traditional sense of the term, is an independent, sovereign political entity. US states, on the other hand, lost their sovereignty to the US, though originally they were meant to retain it when the Union was formed. In other words, it is the United States of America that is the state, not the "states!" Anyway, it's a pretty academic distinction, but one that's important. -- Sci 14:45 4 JAN 2006 UTC

New York, just as every state in the union, is a state, with its own government, its own constitution, and its own laws. Despite the current balance of power between the federal government and states, states are distinct political entities.

As for citing canon... yes, Archer is from NY, and Kirk is from Iowa, Riker from Alaska, Janeway from Indiana, etc... however, none of them ever identify themselves as "Americans". Individual states continue to exist in the Trek universe, but nowhere in canon is there any indication that there is still a 23rd-24th century United States of America. "Eleven Hours Out," with its passing reference to a POTUS, is the first and only non-canon evidence of such, and provides no evidence to indicate how similar or different this USA is from the USA of 1776 or 2006.

Finally, I point you to the wikipedia entry for New York State:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_york

Nowhere is the state refered to as a "subdivision", or is it suggested that a state is not a state.

[edit] Response

First off, you need to sign your name and to put your UTC timesigniture on your responses.

"Eleven Hours Out" isn't the first and only non-canonical evidence that the US continues to exist. There's also Spock's World, in which the President of the United States, upon meeting Ambassador Sarek, remarks that she wants the US Constitution amended so that Sarek could be her next running mate. (The post is described as being ceremonial, however.) Secondly, even if it was, it's still perfectly valid evidence that the USA continues to exist for the purposes of this wiki, because this is the Non-Canon Star Trek Wiki. On top of that, the address that Agent Harris has Reed meet him at in "Affliction" of ENT includes the line, "USA" at the bottom. So it's canonical that the USA continued to exist at least into the 2150s as a political subdivision of United Earth.

Secondly, all states in the US are subdivisions of the US government in general. Yes, the USA was originally supposed to be an organization of independent states akin to the European Union today, but that ended de facto if not de jure after the Civil War. In other words, in order for something to be a state in the traditional sense of the term under international law, the organization in question has to have sovereignty -- and US states no longer have sovereignty. The USA has sovereignty. Hence, the use of the term "state" to refer to the members of the Union is a misnomer. I direct you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State . (The surest test of the US states' lack of sovereignty is that they lack the legal right to choose with secede from the Union, since issues of relationships between the states are according to the Constitution the explicit jurisdiction of the federal government. There's also the fact that when they conflict, federal law trumps state law, and that the rights that states have are determined by the federal constitution.)

Bottom line: The United States of America is a state. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a state. The French Republic is a state. The State of New York, ironically enough, is not a state, and is called as such because of the original conception of the USA as an organization of states rather than a state in and of itself. -- Sci 14:11 5 JAN 2006 UTC

I followed the wikipedia link you provided, and interestingly enough, you seem to have missed this right up at the top:

This article discusses states as sovereign political entities; for other meanings, see state (disambiguation).

This links to a number of other definitions for "state", one of which covers non-sovereign states, such as -- surprise! -- the fifty states that comprise the United States of America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_%28non-sovereign%29

I honestly don't understand your resistance to calling a state a state, or why you think "subdivision" is a better description. (To me, it makes it sound like "New York" is a housing development out in the suburbs.) But, whatever... --Barry Waddle 01:14, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Starfleet Engineering Academy

I've removed the reference in this article to Starfleet Engineering Academy, as it was suggested in User talk:Keras that it originated from an unlicensed source, and no other information has been offered or is available. Google reveals only a handful of references in fanfic and/or unofficial roleplaying games. Any objections? --Seventy 01:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)