Vanguard contentEdit

Note to anyone who has the Vanguard novels, if you can add something to the Tholian Assembly article like the government section the it will help make it look more complete. No requirement but just thought I should mention it since I don't have the books. Anyway, no requirement, just a note for any future contributors. -- Darth Batrus 18:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I was right! The Tholian symbol was (or it possibly is another version of) used in the series SPACE: Above and Beyond. The species that used this symbol were called Chigs. Rift Fleet 15:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Location Edit

The category of Beta Quadrant states was already on this article, but the article itself mentions only the Alpha Quadrant, so I have added Alpha Quadrant states to it as a category; however, I seem to recall seeing it positioned along the borderline of the quadrants, so both could be correct. I can't recall where I saw that, though, so someone please add sources if possible.--KikisKin 04:05, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Star Trek: Star Charts marks it as wholly in the Alpha Quadrant, I imagine the labelling of it as Beta Quadrant as well may have been an attempt to square it with Vanguard which describes Tholian space as one side of the Taurus Reach sandwich, with Klingon space on the other; Star Charts places the Klingons entirely within the Beta Quadrant. Of course Star Charts gives us a 2D version of the galaxy, so for all we know either Tholian or Klingon space could extend above or below Federation space into the other quadrant, or Star Charts might not even be in the same continuity as Vanguard. --8of5 19:00, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, does anyone know where the claim the Tholians boarder with the Klingons comes from? I was just flipping through The Sundered to try and find a citation for the political structure described in the intro on this page (it set the groundwork but the specifics seem to come from Harbinger), and found a statement noting that the Tholians are distant from both the Romulans and Klingons, and notable that they are not neighbours of the Klingons (page 26). --8of5 19:20, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, in 3D, there is no limitation to the number of regions that may border one another; whereas in 2D, only 4 regions may mutually touch (with one in the center, totally surrounded). --KikisKin 19:34, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well no, the Federation borders on considerably more than four other states! Even in 2D everything isn't happening in perfect squares of space.--8of5 19:37, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

I'd say the Beta Q notation isn't well-sourced enough to keep in the article, since it is just as likely it could be rationalized by an expanse of Klingon space or Taurus Reach area that reaches through to the Alpha Quadrant. I know the original authors were probably hopeful that the explanation would be simple, but 3D is more complex than that.

One other example of this is Romulan space -- Star Charts places it entirely in the Beta Q in one view, but then the LUG RPG shows another view (theoretically from a different "depth") where the RSE is shaped like a horseshoe and curves around to touch Breen space in the Alpha Quadrant.

I've made the assumption that an arm of Klingon space could very well curve through to the Alpha Q when I categorized Klingon articles -- all KE articles not specifically noted as Beta Q are in the 'uncertain' category 'Alpha and Beta' -- Captain MKB 19:48, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well I took the Beta Quadrant category off when I cited the intro, but I left the Klingon border reference in, that will need to go too if a source cant be found.

I agree there's probably enough circumstantial evidence to be vague about whether Klingon space is only in the Beta Quadrant or not, though it would be nice to justify that assumption with a source noting some part of Klingon space definitely being in the Alpha Quadrant, much the same as the charts you refer too secures that possibility for the Romulans.

I've only read the first Vanguard book so far, do any of the others give any quadrant references for where the Taurus Reach actually is? --8of5 19:54, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the Fed. touches more than 4 other states--but what I said was mutually touching (and 2D)--that is to say, in 2D, you can't have a set of more than 4 states where each one touches every other one. Again, 3D doesn't have that (or any) restriction--think of spaghetti noodles.

I'd like to get a list together, just to understand it all. Here's what I have so far:

The Federation is said to border the Cardassians, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Tholians, the Tzengethi, the Talarians, the Patriarchy, the Ferengi, the Gorn, the Breen, and the First Federation (did I forget some? probably so...).

The Klingons border the Federation, Romulans, and Kinshaya.

The Romulans share borders with the Federation, the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Gorn, the Interstellar Concordium

The Cardassians border (or nearly border) the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Ubarrak, Talarians, Breen, Ferengi, and Tzengethi.

--KikisKin 00:41, June 27, 2010 (UTC)